Comments on: Disengagement, Disenchantment & Disbelief

By: cuz dys

cuz dys — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 03:46:00 +0000

Wonderful talking with you, R. Thanks for your Blog, Ilan. Iz kickin’!

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 16 Nov 2005 01:05:00 +0000

Cuz dys, your last sentence states, “…the Religious Israeli communities did not speak out as one against he violence and destruction caused by their own.” Again I say that nobody is perfect, people have emotions, and the “violence and destruction” that the settlers caused was much less toned down than anybody expected in the first place. I have a feeling we’re gonna be going in circles with this argument.
Anway, sorry Ilan for taking over your blog and talking too much even though I am a complete stranger to you. You deserve it anyway after you forced me to have to stop eating a certain food (i.e. balogna.)

By: cuz dys

cuz dys — Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:30:00 +0000

R – you responded very cogently. I disagree with your emotional argument about the ability to get used to an idea. One thing to think about that proves my point, I think, is who we consider the nation of the Palestinians. If you keep saying it, it must be true and people accept it. This is a psychological tactic that works. But anyway, the issue I was focusing on that you seemed to have missed is the approval that criminal behavior enjoyed from a huge section of the Religious population. That is what upsets me. Everyone will agree that the looting after Katrina was wrong, but in Israel, there are Rabbis and Communities that condone the actions of the protesters. I do not accept this, and feel that the Religious Israeli communities did not speak out as one against the violence and destruction caused by their own.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:22:00 +0000

Cuz dys, I agree with what you said in the beginning. The comparison I made does come with a huge “L’havdil.” And perhaps showing all the crime going on in New Orleans was propoganda. But the crime did happen and that can’t be overlooked. Yes, off course there were a lot of stories of people helping one another, and that can’t be overlooked either. But the point I’m trying to make is that whether news stations purposely showed that crime or not, the crime did happen. It wasn’t false propoganda. (“The stories of humanity during, and after the Hurricane are comparable to anything that happened during the disengagement.” I believe that that must also come with a “L’havdil.”)
You said that the settlers had time to get used to the idea of leaving their homes and communities, and that that was a factor that helped stop violence. Do you really think that if I were to tell you that I’m going to come down to your house in about a year and throw you out, you would just get used to the idea and allow me to do so when I arrived? No way! You’d beat me to death when I came. I can give you all the time to get used to the idea of leaving your home, but if you were determined not to ever leave you would stick up for you family and home with all your life when I would arrive. Imagine with what hate you’d try to get me to leave you alone (and imagine that the police and government were on my side.) Many of those settlers were not planning on leaving their homes (so much so that some didn’t even pack). So when the soldiers came to tell them to leave wouldn’t you have expected them to fight more violently than they did? Those Jews, many of them orthodox, whom you said did not handle the situation properly, truly arose to the occasion. They did not cause as much harm and destruction that would have been expected. Off course it would have been greater if they didn’t behave violently at all. But how much more can you expect, especially with the anger they were harboring? You see, as an orthodox Jew, I love to have a great sense of “Ahavat Yisrael.” So when you say, ” I do not think that Religious Leaders handled it correctly with exceptions, nor do I think much of the Religious public handled it correctly,” I’m going to give you the same advice you gave me for the Katrina example: “You just have to look harder.” You have to look deeper into the situation and see how great your fellow Jew was.

By: cuz dys

cuz dys — Sun, 13 Nov 2005 07:29:00 +0000

R, I respect what you said, but disagree with most of it. A couple thoughts: I dislike comparing Jews to anyone. I am not sure what your religious orientation is, if any, but as an Orthodox Jew, I fully believe “Mi Ke’Amcha Yisrael, Goy Echad Ba’Aretz – Who is like the nation of Israel? A unique nation in the land.” This is also the difference between the standards I hold Israel to versus the standards I hold other nations to. Yes, Jews are special and different. The world expects more, and I expect more. Particularly, I think the Katrina comparison is incorrect. One problem is that we were only exposed to the crimes, because, let’s face it, thousands of people calmly accepting their lot to camp out in the Superdome makes for really boring news. The stories of humanity during, and after the Hurricane are comparable to anything that happened during the disengagement; you just have to look harder because few are interested in them. To look back at the disengagement there was also the lead-up before the disengagement that did give people time to acclimate to the idea, even if they tried to refuse to accept it. I think that that was also a large factor that helped stop violence. When you look at statements made at the start of the year with regards to the disengagement, they are very, very scary. During, I also disagree that there hundreds who embraced the soldiers. There was not, and probably will not be any study, but the scattered pictures were saw are certainly for me overwhelmed by the stories of pain, tears and suffering both sides experienced and directly caused the other side. Please understand me – I love Israel, and cried what I was able to along with the evacuees. However, I do not think that Religious Leaders handled it correctly with exceptions, nor do I think much of the Religious public handled it correctly.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:20:00 +0000

Cuz dys, off course they did many things that were wrong. Terrible. Yet in comparison to what other people may have done in that sort of situation, they were pretty amazing. I used this example before and I’ll use it again: While we watched the people of New Orleans after Katrina, yes they may have helped one another in many ways, yet there were also many stories of rape, theft, and police corruption. These things were done by one victim of the hurricane to the next victim. If man is capable of treating another man who is in the same boat as himself in such a way, I am only left to wonder what they would do to the person who was causing them both that particular pain. (Yet, off course, the victims of Hurricane Katrina could not do anything to cause pain back to Katrina. But what would they do if such a thing were possible?) Does that make sense? The people of Gush Katif could have done much worse to the soldiers, the people who were causing them their pain. Even if just one evacuee and one soldier were to embrace and feel one another’s pain that would have been a lot. Not to mention, that hundreds of evacuees and soldiers did that.

By: cuz dys

cuz dys — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:19:00 +0000

I would like to respond to R’s comment. I think that while the actual evacuation was ok, when you hear stories of Roshe Yeshiva saying that it is ok to destroy Army equipment, and boys throwing caustic soda on the soldiers, not to mention, yes, the physical struggle, I do not think it is as simple and as beautiful as that. The Jews who stormed the roadblock in Shavee Shomron and tore it to peices did not demonstrate proper behavior. Yes, I too was moved to tears by the images I saw, but there was plenty of behind the scenes that were a lot worse.

By: ilan

ilan — Thu, 03 Nov 2005 04:35:00 +0000

An audience? You flatter me, dear anonymous.
But I do plan on posting, and much more regularly, come next week, when my schedule will have gotten back to normal.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 03 Nov 2005 04:15:00 +0000

Are you planning on posting again soon? You probably have a hectic schedule like most people, but, hey, there’s an audience waiting out here to hear what you have to say!

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:51:00 +0000

Amen.